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Hello,

By way of introduction my name is Damian Downie and I am seeking any information relevant to the Lamont sept name Aldownie.  I have a couple of very basic hypotheses, which I can post but I do not want to bore anyone too much at this stage.  I am hopeful that someone may have more detailed information relating to the name. 

The reasoning behind the request is that the similarity in the spelling of the sept name to my own and that one of my closest genetic matches (+ or – 1 fast mutating markers on 37 markers at 4GD and at 67 markers at 9GD and a M222+ haplotype) is with a Lamont surname and the majority of my other surnames matches are listed as septs of Clans in the Argyll area.  From my limited knowledge I believe that all the sept names that are associated with other Clans are geographically close to the current/historic lands of the Lamonts.  

Thank you in advance for your assistance with this question.

Regards,

 

Damian Downie

 



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Hi Damian, glad to see you found us from the Lamont DNA group. I don't think you will bore anybody with your theories, we have lots of Lamont genealogist here that can possible help.

One idea I had proposed to Damian when he joined the DNA study is that Donn (pronounced down) is gaelic for Brown. We all know lots of Browns in the Lamont family with the name changes that occured back when.

Welcome!



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Hi Damian,

Welcome to our group, you will never bore any of us talking about DNA and sept name connections.  IMHO the science of DNA is going to prove a lot to us about our ancestry, as we get deeper into DNA, it is quite likely that we will discover there are more sept names and blood connections that we ever imagined.  Some of the Clan DNA projects are beginning to find the connections to the various septs that are related to a given clan.

The Clan Gregor DNA project is is a good example, my 4th GGF's surname was Gregory, the DNA from his line matches that of the McGregors.  In this case Gregory is a recognized sept of Clan Gregor, but it does prove that those relationships do exist and confirms the historical claim.

The Patrick DNA should confirm descent from and match the Lamont DNA, I don't know if anyone has compared the DNA samples from both surnames, but if our clan history, which is well documented, is correct that should be the case.

Surnames have been used interchangably in Scotland through the years, some individuals bore as many as three recorded surnames in their life.  Take a look of the history of the Patrick sept posts here on the forum, you will see some examples and a little background on this practice.. 

-- Edited by MacPatrick on Monday 20th of July 2009 11:24:50 AM

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Welcome Damien.  Any history or information you can share will be read with gusto.  We're all hungry here to find any tidbits relating to our clan and respective families.  So please, share whatever you choose. 

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Hello Gents,

Many thanks for you kind replies.  I continue to dig in the areas of DNA and solid (ish) paper trails.  Like most people with a Scottish background I have seen our family surname spelt many ways, including Mceldowney and Mcildowney in Ulster, to Mcildownie and Downie/Downey (for the same family members) in Scotland and perhaps a few variations that I haven't been able to determine.  I have even seen where two brothers have been referred to as Mcildownie and Downie at the same time or a Mceldowney moving from Ireland to Scotland described as Mcildownie. 

From research it looks as if the MacIldownie name dies out in Scotland around the early 1800’s (with the exception of an aberration of a Mceldownie family [as above] being renamed McIldownie in Scotland and having a child in 1869) for a variety of reasons.  The surname continued on as Mcildowney and more popularly Mceldowney in Ulster and dispersed to many corners of the earth in the early to mid 1800’s.  Even with my criticism I do have some sympathy with the old scribes, as even today with my Australian accent I get my surname spelt Dowie and Downey... 

The Downey DNA site at FTDNA is gearing up in an attempt to sort out the mess.  I have offered to assist the DNA site, so any advice would be greatly appreciated Knockdow.  What we are able to surmise at this stage is that our family’s version of the surname is not related to any Downie's either on paper or DNA (or any other surnames) on the eastern coast of Scotland, nor the Downey's or Muldowney's from Ireland.  At the present time we are looking for Mcildowney/Mceldowney’s to participate and have even enlisted the help of the Dowie DNA project to help sort things out in case they can find a Macildowie or Macaldowie out there as none have participated in DNA testing at this time. 

To add to the confusion, Black describes the surname Macildownie in Gaelic as Mac Gille Domhnaich in Scotland and it is known as even today as Mac Giolla Domhnaigh or MacEldowney in Ulster with both derivations meaning 'son of the Lord's servant', being a priest.  Add to this the respected site, (rather than the commercial ones) of the Clan Donald which describes that MacIldonie’s from Kintyre are part of the clan (South) and MacIldonies not of Clan Donald may be of Clans Cameron, Lamont, MacGregor or MacLean. Clan Donald MacIldonies derive from the Gaelic: Mac Mhaoil Domnhaigh - "son of the Lord's Dayservant".

While the samples are limited, at 25 markers our DNA had many a match with many surnames associated with Clan MacGregor and others, but these fell away at 67 markers (+/- 10GD) to surnames in the Argyll areas such as Allison (MacFarlane), Lamont, Law and Laws (MacLaren), Mawhorter (Buchanan), McConnell, Miller (MacFarlane).  Other matches are on the West Coast of Scotland include Gilmore, Gilmer (Morrison) and MacKenzie.  Other matches are a Neal and Neel (with no history), with the rest being native Northern Irish names associated with Ui Nail and the NW of Ireland or Ulster area. 


A number of paths have lead me to the Clan Lamont, these include the spelling and derivation of the sept name Aldownie/Aldowney, my DNA matches and their geographical placements at the northern end of the Cowal Peninsula.  I am hopeful that as DNA testing increase better information will come to hand.  I am thankful to Knockdow for his kindly advice and will continue the search.  Having trawled through the forum, I wanted to congratulate the whole of Clan Lamont in having a very active and friendly feel about the way they respond and treat their members, as it does the Clan much credit.  

Warm Regards,

Damian Downie

 



-- Edited by ddownie on Sunday 2nd of August 2009 08:48:10 AM

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Damian

advise I have for DNA is to recruit. Visit forums that have your surname. Don't solict DNA at first contact. Get to know the people first, then as they begin to know you, you can bring in the subject of DNA. You will sppok some peole awa if your first conversation is asking them to join DNA, some people have fears.

-- Edited by Knockdow on Monday 3rd of August 2009 10:17:04 AM

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Many thanks for that, I agree with you that some people do appear to have issues with participation in DNA projects.  I will follow your advice and hopefully in time the testing pool will increase.

Regards,

Damian



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Hi,

Well I did a little digging and plotted some details of Downie (and name derivaties) familes in the Argyll and Bute area on a Google map (below).  Of interest to this forum is the families that are recorded in Inverchaolain (I have forwarded the original copies of the Birth Certificated to Knockdow). 

I have attached details of the methodology so that at anytime the process can be replecated to prove/disprove any of my opinions.

There are a number of derivations of the surname Downie that arise in the Argyll area only as opposed to the Downie families of Angus and eastern Scotland.  In Argyll there is a high probability that the Downie surname has derived for the surnames such as Mcildownie, Mcgildownie, Mcildonie, Mcgildonie, Mcildounie, Mcgildounie and Mcillduine (and various minor corruptions of these, i.e. Mcaldownie, Mcildowney or Mcildony).  These surnames are probably the breakdown of Mcildownie or Mac Gille Domhnaich, meaning “son of the Lords gille or servant” (Black, Surnames of Scotland).  The Clan Donald describes Macildonies not of Clan Donald in Kintyre may be of Clans Cameron, Lamont, MacGregor or MacLean, with Macildonies derived from the Gaelic: Mac Mhaoil domnhaigh - "son of the Lord's Dayservant".  Further to this there is a Northern Irish or Ulster version of the surname Mac Giolla Domhnaigh is known as Mceldowney, Mcildowney. 

 

The earliest forms of the surname is recorded but do not appear as natives to Glasgow and Campsie area around the early to mid 1600’s in the forms of Mcildounie, Mcildownie, Mcildunnie, Mcildowney, Mckildouiney, Mckildouny, Mckildownie.  This early date is probably due to the nature of recording surnames in major townships as compared to rural Argyll.  Often the same family has variations in the spelling between children.  Outside of major towns, the surnames are not seen until the 1730’s in the Argyll and Bute area.  A ‘google’ map of the surname distribution has been created and give a very good visual picture and is located at    http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101522944548822731861.0004709fd7bb5ce694381&ll=56.63433,-4.460449&spn=0.645765,2.108002&t=h&z=10 . 

 

(Disclaimer)
The following information is based on assumption and should not be used as fact. To confirm your beliefs, further research must be conducted.  This map and information is best used as a guide only. 
Further research would include a breakdown similar to that of the Parish of Inverchaolain where locations are identified on an ordinance map (this level of detail is required) via birth certificates and fully tracing the descendants of each family.

 

The methodology for the map plot was:

 

·         All data was sourced from http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

·         An individual and phonetic search for all births 1538 to 1854 in Scotland was conducted for the following names:

 

o   Mcildownie

o   Mcildowney

o   Mcaldownie

o   Mcgildownie

o   Mcildonie

o   Mcgildonie

o   Donie

o   Mcildounie

o   Mcgildounie

o   Dounie

o   Mcilduine

o   Mcgilduine

o   Duine

o   Mcaldownie

 

·      All Downie surnames for births 1538 to 1854in the Argyll and Bute area.

·      All names were plotted to the parish header with the exception of the Parish of Inverchaolain.  This parish was broken down by locations (towns/farms) nominated on the birth certificates.

·      Census details were obtained for the period of 1841 and 1851.  There were no significant census records of the Mcildownie, Mcildonie, Mcildounie etc... surnames for all of Scotland. 

·      Census records for 1841 and 1851 were plotted for the Downie surname in Argyll and Bute.

·      DNA links to Scotland are the Blue Pins using YSearch site and matching against 67 markers with a genetic difference of up to +/-1 on 10 markers. 

·      The results from YSearch were analysed using the McGee’s DNA Analysis tool.

·      The sept names for a clan have been identified through each Clan’s central or United Kingdom website.

 

Review of the data plots revealed some probabilities:

 

  • That the area in Kintyre, in particular Campbeltown provide a possible “Rosetta Stone” for the evolution of the surname to Downie.

     

  • From Birth Certificates and the 1841 census onwards, that the surname Downie probably supplanted earlier version of the surname due to cultural concessions at the time of change, i.e. to obtain work/prejudice against Highland/Catholic surnames. 

     

  • That the Mcil/Mcgil prefixes to the Downie surname were dropped over a period of time, particularly from 1750’s, with the last birth to register the surname was in 1802.

     

  • There are no significant records of Mcildownie and variation on the 1841 or 1851 Census for Scotland.

     

  • That spelling of the surnames appear to be based around parishes, so each of the recording officials had their own spelling of the surname, i.e. Mcilduine in Killin, Mcildonie in Inverchaolain, Mcildownie and Mcildounie in Campbeltown and Mcildownie in Glasgow and Stirling.

     

  • That surnames could change between generations i.e. Father is Mcildounie/Mcildownie and child is a Dounie/Downie or even within families, Mcildounie to Mckildownie.

    ·
            
    That first naming conventions travel through families with different surnames, i.e. first boy named after father’s father, second boy mothers father, third boy after the father etc...  This helps to track the changes in the surnames over time.

     

  • That in the Argyll & Bute area the various Mcildownie surnames were not recorded until the 1730’s, the first being a Mcildonie in Inverchaolain at Finnart Point (You will require and Ordinance Map, but Finnart approx. 2 km south of Glenstriven on eastern side of Loch Striven) .

     

  • The surname Mcaldownie is seen once in Glenorchy and Inishail in 1759 and the probable father is a Downie and once as Mcilladownie Kilchenzie in 1786 with a Downie father.

     

  • A number of (Mcil)Downie families, in particular in the Inverchaolain area ‘disappear’ after 1750’s and it is probable were part of the Highland Clearances that occurred, as the Parish of Inverchaolain in 1801 had a population of 626 and rapidly declining.

     

  • The first and only time we see births or any other record for Mcildownie’s or associated surnames outside of Argyll area (with the exception of one family JHONE MCILDOWNIE/JONAT RALTOUN being found in Glasgow from 1611) is in:

 

o   Glasgow is 1646 for Johne & Janot (Litiljohne) Mcildounie (One family)

o   Baldernock is 1650 for the Mcildownie’s (Two families) 

o   Kirkintilloch is 1651 for the Mcildownie’s (Three families)

o   Campsie is 1656 for the Mcildowney’s (Three families)

o   Airdrie is 1657 for the Mcildownie’s (One Family)

 

This suggests the probability that something significant happened on or previous to 1646 that caused the nine families to leave their last place of abode.  Documentation states that no Mcildownie or derivatives were there previously as JHONE MCILDOWNIE/JONAT RALTOUN being recorded in Glasgow from 1611 show just how far back records were being kept.  This combined with a good level of recording for individuals in major urban centers leads to the possibility that the above families may have moved from the Cowal area due to possible conflict.  One such matter may have been after the Lamont strongholds were attacked in 1646 by the Campbells and the subsequent treatment of the Lamonts at Dunoon.  These nine families form a significant proportion of the known Mcildownie families in Argyll even 80 years later.

 

  • As an aside, the Mcgildonie family at Knockdow:

     

06/12/1747 MCGILDONIE JOHN ALEXANDER MCGILDONIE/MARY BLACK FR22 M
05/11/1752 MCGILDONIE JOHN ALEXANDER MCGILDONIE/MARY BLACK FR31 M
05/11/1754 MCGILDONIE COLIN ALEXANDER MCGILDONIE/MARY BLACK FR36 M
17/03/1757 MCGILDONIE WILLIAM ALEXANDER MCGILDONIE/MARY BLACK FR43 M
25/02/1759 MCGILDONIE JAMES ALEXANDER MCGILDONIE/MARY BLACK FR48 M

 

is the closest family that contains all of the forenames as far back as I am able to trace.  Of interest to myself and this is very hypothetical at the present time is our possible links with the Mcgildonie family in Knockdow.  As far as we can trace the family back in Northern Ireland in the early 1800’s we have the very strong naming conventions that include the names William, James, John, Alexander and Samuel (Samuel has never been associated with the Downie/Mcildownie surname in Argyll and our version is believe to be a mother’s father’s name) and thankfully no first name of Colin.  The family in Knockdow is the only one that carries all of those forenames.  I have a DNA match at 67 (8 GD) with a McGrory (possibly McGorrie??), and a DNA match with a Lamont and Young at 67 (10).

 

This, combined with the DNA matches at 67 (GD 10) for Lamont, Young and McGrory (McGorrie) and the possibility that there is a high probability that the Knockdow Mcgildonies were part of the Highland clearances in the 1750’s, they are not found anywhere else in Scotland after this date, that a number of those displaced in 1740/50’s clearances travelled to Northern Ireland and family history (as unreliable as it is) states that the family was only in Ireland for one generation has warranted a bit of further investigation.

 

  • DNA testing has shown that some individuals with the Downie surname are associated with the Ui Niall (North West Irish or M222+) Haplotype. 

    Your thoughts and opinions would be greatly appreciated and if you require any more information or the raw data pelase do not hesitate to ask.

    Regards,

    Damian Downie


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Damien thats a lot of hard work you have done. You will see rewards for that work I am sure.

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I can not remember who said it, but it was along the lines of "information only has value once it is given away" or similar..., but may thanks Knockdow.

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Hi Damian

Excellent work.

In my search for Lamonts/McPhadricks, I came across quite a few births of Downies (but spelt 'Donie') in Inverchaolain in the period 1737 to 1750. Are these the ones you refer to?

Best

Sandy  

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Hi Sandy,

Many thanks, I just hope that it provides some benefit to others as it has me.  Yes, the name Donie (Mcgildonie) appears to be almost unique to the Inverchaolain Parish, with the exception of three recorded families in Campbeltown.  It appears that each parish had a way of spelling the Downie surname based on the Registrars hearing! 

I also came across a few Lamonts and McPhadricks, including a McGilPadrick in the Inverchaolain Parish records.  There were also a few Blacks and Whites in the mix.  I have forwarded all the copies of the original Birth Registries to Knockdow, so if you would like copies they can be obtained from either of us. 

My interest at the moment is in tracking one of the families that are registered as being born in Knockdow.  They are last seen in the 1750’s and at this stage I am making the very broad assumption that they went to Northern Ireland as I can find no trace of them with the various surname spellings anywhere in Scotland or the USA. 

Like most families, there was a strong naming convention and the family in Knockdow is the closest one that I have found that contains all of our family forenames (James, William, John and Alexander).  I have been doing a bit of reengineering and working back from Northern Ireland and am at 1804, so hopefully one more generation to find to make the missing link.  There is a good free site that has the 1911 and soon the 1901 Census and copies of the original certificates for Ireland at:  http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/ .  This, combined with our family’s longevity (which is still around today) has made things a bit easier.   

In searching for my family, I have traced another Downie (Downey) family back from Northern Ireland to a Dounie (Downie) in Kintyre.  I only wish these Downie’s would participate in the Downie DNA project J!

If you come across any other Donie, Mcgildonie or Mcildonies I would be more than interested to hear about them.

 

Regards,

 

Damian  

 



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Hi Damian

I've found McGilParick, McGilPharick, McGilPharig and McGilPhatrick in Inverchaolain, but no McGilPadricks, so yes, details would be great.

I too am very interested in DNA matches and like you, am M222+. I suspect your Lamont match is probably with Howard Lamont whose oldest ancestor seems to trace back to Islay.

That doesn't of course mean that earlier ancestors of his weren't from Argyll.

I have a fairly close match (GD 7 at 67 markers) with a Slaven. What makes that interesting is that the name Slaven is thought to derive from Duinsleibhe, who features in the Lamont pedigree that the eminent Scottish antiquarian William Skene disputed (as have others since him).

Sandy

 



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Hi Sandy,

I shall send you everything that I have as my eyes tend to go out of focus if I look at there Birth Certificates too long!  Like yourself, and Howard I am M222+ which is a bit of a curse and a blessing. 

I had a look at Howard and his last know ancestor was born in Islay in 1734, so a newcomer by most standards of the day :). 

I have dug up some more information, getting to late to make sense of it all, will post tomorrow and send you those BC's.

Regards,

Damian

-- Edited by ddownie on Monday 24th of August 2009 09:27:07 AM

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Sandy,

All of the names you mention are MacPatricks of Couston, there are a lot of spelling variations.  What period of time do these Birth Certificates cover.  We know there were Patrick's and McPatrick's in Ayr and Paisley over to Edinburgh during that period.

Ayr is right across the Firth of Clyde from Dunoon.

-- Edited by MacPatrick on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 06:41:05 AM

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Hello Jim

It covers the entire period from 01 January 1538 to 31 December 1854.

I did an Index search for McGilPadrick births with soundex on, for Inverchaolain. So yes, these are probably all McPhadrick's from Coustoun.

I've also found a large number of McPhatricks and McPhadricks born in Nairn, Moray and Inverness although it's not yet clear to me whether they are Lamonts. I noticed that one of them was styled McPhadrick or Voir whilst another was styled McPhadrick or Fraser. These births took place from as early as 1650 through to 1787.

Sandy  





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Sandy,

You should be able find more MacPatrick's in the MacLauren lands area north of Glasgow.  Some sept lists show Patrick as a sept of Clan MacLauren, but the MacLauren historians readily state that the Patrick's among them were descendants of the MacPatrick's of Couston.

On another subject not related to the Lamonts, do you have access to any records of the Movars, who are a sept of Clan Innes, from the Aberdeen area? I am helping a friend with some research on this family and was wondering where we might find the records.  Is it possible to pinpoint the parishes and cemeteries?



 



-- Edited by MacPatrick on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 06:58:31 AM

-- Edited by MacPatrick on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 06:59:15 AM

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Hello All,

I have been doing a bit more digging on my links and a bit on the sept name Aldownie, it is marvelous the motivation you have when you should be writing a Research Paper!  Here is some more information regarding the surname, to be read with the previous post.  I have highlighted the interesting information to reduce the wading through some of the results. 

The findings are written with members of the Downie (Downey) FTDNA project in mind. So, please let me know what you think.

 

The surname MacAldonich (the ‘ch’ pronounced as ‘e’ or ‘ey’ in Ireland), or in Gaelic is Mac-maol-, Domhnaich, “son of the servant of the Church, or of the Lord” (Black, Surnames of Scotland) or from Maoldomhnaich, "servant of the Church", derivative surnames are McAldonich in Scotland, Muldooney, Muldowney, in Ireland (W.W.Gill A Third Manx Scrapbook, 1928).

 

 

Searches

  

An individual and phonetic search for all births, marriages and deaths 1538 to 1854 in Scotland was conducted for the surname Mcaldonich:

 ·         The Mcaldonich families are located in two areas, near Damally in Argyll and Inverness (Inverness will be investigated at a later date). 

·         In Argyll the Mcaldonich family is first recorded by a birth in 1754 in Auchtemully (just south of Damally). 

  • The last record in Argyll is a birth in 1764 in Auchtemully (just south of Damally). 
  • There are nine marriages recorded, all in Inverness.
  • There are three deaths recorded, all in Inverness.
  • There are no Mcaldonich or similar on the 1841, 1851 census.

An individual search for all births 1538 to 1854 in Scotland was conducted for the surname Downie in Argyll, Glenorchy and Inishail Parish:

 ·         The Downie families are located around the Damally area.

·         The Downie family is first recorded by a birth in 1762 in Bochyle (north east of Damally).

·         There are Downie births recorded in Auchtemully (just south of Damally). 

·         The last record in Argyll is a birth in 1826 in Drishaig (just west of Damally).

·         There are records of marriages, deaths and census.

An individual search for all births 1538 to 1854 in Glenorchy and Inishail Parish, Argyll, Scotland was conducted for the following names:

        ·                                           Mcildownie

·                                           Mcildowney

·                                           Mcaldownie

·                                           Mcgildownie

·                                           Mcildonie

·                                           Mcgildonie

·                                           Donie

·                                           Mcildounie

·                                           Mcgildounie

·                                           Dounie

·                                           Mcilduine

·                                           Mcgilduine

·                                           Duine

·                                           Mcaldownie

 

 ·         No records were found.

 An individual search for all births 1538 to 1854 and post 1855 for Scotland was conducted for the following surnames:

 ·         Aldownie

·         Aldowney

·         Mcaldownie

·         Mcaldowney

 ·         One Mcaldownie was found via Birth Certificate, Christian Mcaldownie b.1759 in Blercharin (Barr a Chistealain) near Damally.  This is the same geographical location for individuals with the Mcaldonich and Downie’s surname at Blercharin (Barr a Chistealain).  The location is a group of houses just south of Damally and west of Auchtermally.

·         There are no Mcaldownie’s listed being married or died in all of Scotland.

·         There are no Mcaldownie’s listed in the 1841 Census.

 Auchtermully or 'Uachdar Mhaluidh, is described by The Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland (RCAHMS) as: 

Ruins of eight drystone buildings, two sheepfolds and a corn-drying kiln of unusual design.  Visit by OS March 1973.  The outline of several dwellings sited either side of the burn Allt Mhaluidh are clearly visible. A lime kiln and flax pit are well marked. H Harold 1981.  Associated corn-drying kilns at NN 173 258, NN 174 258 and NN 172 259 are listed; no details given.  Hill 1976.  A township, comprising eleven unroofed buildings, four enclosures and two lengths of head-dyke is depicted on the 1st edition of the OS 6-inch map (Argyllshire 1875, sheet ci). Ten unroofed buildings, three enclosures and three lengths of head-dyke are shown on the current edition of the OS 1:10000 map (1977).   http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/site/23645/details/uachdar+mhaluidh/

Books and References:

Harold, H (1981b) 'Uachdar Mhaluidh, Auchtermully (Glenorchy and Inishail p) deserted settlement', Discovery Excav Scot Page(s): 28

Hill, P (1976e) 'Glenorchy: corn-drying kilns', Discovery Excav Scot
Page(s): 16

McOwan, R (1991) 'Dirks from Dalmally', The Scots Mag, New, vol.135, 5 August

  

·         Birth Certificates state that there were three Mcaldonich families in Auchtemully between 1754 to 1764.

 

·         Birth Certificates state that there were Downie families in Auchtemully between 1768 to 1803.

 

·         Both the Mcaldonich and Downie families in Auchtemully and the immediate area have similar first name naming conventions.

 

·         Only one other family has been identified living in Auchtemully, being MCVRACHDAR’s that marry into the Downie family.

 

·         Marriage Certificate states that in 1772 Christian Downie of Auchtermally was married.  The only close match is a Christian Mcaldonich of Auchtermally b.1854, making her 18 at the time of marriage.  The only Christine Downie listed was b. 1765 making her 11 at the time of the marriage.

 

·          Marriage Certificate states that in 1779 Katherine Downie of Auchtermally was married.  There is a Katherine Mcaldonich of Auchtermally b. 1761, making her 18 at the time of the marriage.  The only Katherine Downie listed was born in 1799, 20 years after the date of marriage.

 

Map

 

·         The details of birth were then plotted onto a Goggle map using an ordinance survey map of 1840.  The map is reproduced here:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101522944548822731861.0004709fd7bb5ce694381&ll=56.290632,-5.116882&spn=1.306334,4.216003&t=h&z=9

 

Review of the Information

 

(Standard disclaimer to varify all the information for yourself before accepting them as factual) 

In my 'opinion', review of the data and plots revealed some probabilities:

 

  • The surname Downie is not known in the area prior to the Mcaldonich surname.  The Mcaldonich surname is not known or seen in any birth, marriage, death or census in the Argyll area after the name Downie appears.

  

  • There is a very close geographical association between the various individuals with the Mcaldonich, Mcaldownie and Downie surname.

  

  • That the surname Mcaldonich, with a ‘probable’ pronunciation Mcaldonie was the precursor to the Downie surname being recorded in the area.

  

  • That Christian Mcildownie b. 1759 in Blercharin (Barr a Chistealain) is part of the Mcaldonich family, (there is a Christian Mcaldonich b. 1754 and 1756 in Auchtermully and a Christian Downie b. 1765 in Bochyle) and it is probable that this birth registration was a transition in the use of the surname from Mcaldonich to Mcaldownie to Downie. 

 

  • Basic hand writing analysis suggests that it is the same Registrar who records the Mcaldonich and Mcaldownie birth(s).  With subsequent Registrars recording the Downie surname at birth.

  

  • That evidence of the Marriage Certificates for Christian and Katherine and the birth of Christian Mcaldownie suggest the probability that the Downie surname was being used in place of Mcaldonich from 1772.

 

  • The first Birth Certificate for a Downie surname in Glenorchy Parish is 1762. 

  

  • There are no registered births for the Mcaldonich surname in Glenorchy after 1764.  

  

  • There are no Mcildonie or similar families known in Glenorchy and Inishail Parish.

  

  • The surname Mcaldonich is associated as a sept of Clan Buchanan.

  

  • The Aldownie sept of clan Lamont and may be a derivative of the Mcaldonich surname.

  

  • The M222+ Downie’s in the Downie (Downey) FTDNA Project have a 67 marker (+/- 10 GD) with a McWhirter of Clan Buchannan and a Lamont, Young and McGrory (McGorrie?) of Clan Lamont.

  

·         Effects of Emigration and Migration – Scotland’s People
Many emigrants from Scotland changed their names on arrival in their new country, as did many people from the Highlands & Islands who migrated to the Scottish lowlands in search of work. Shortening or dropping the prefix "Mc" or "Mac", or anglicising a gaelic surname, or indeed changing the surname altogether for a similar sounding English one, which would be easier to pronounce and would conceal one’s origins, were quite common occurrences. Thus the gaelic surname Macdonnchaidh or Macdonachie becomes Duncanson, Macian becomes Johnson, Macdonald is anglicised to Donaldson, Macilroy becomes Milroy, and Maccowan becomes Cowan. The gaelic Mac Ghille dhuibh, or “son of the black lad”, seen in the surnames Macilduy, Macildue and Macildowie, translates to Black. Gilchrist, a gaelic name meaning servant of Christ, might be anglicised to Christopher. Illiteracy might, however, engender a change of surname by default, giving rise to weird and wonderful variants, e.g. Maclachlan recorded as Mcglauflin.

  

The name Mcaldowney appears to be present in the US, with the name appearing in the 1920 and 1930’s United States Federal Census. 

 

Raw data, certificates and sources can be provided on request.


Regards,


Damian



-- Edited by ddownie on Tuesday 25th of August 2009 09:21:06 AM

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Hi Damian

There's a little about the McIllduie sept of Clan Lamont in Hector McKechnie's book The Lamont Clan 1235-1935. I have the CD version of the book, which I find quite difficult to read from a computer screen, but it does have the advantage of being able to do text searches.

McKechnie talks of some work done by the historian Buchanan of Auchmar, apparently the first seanachie of the Lamont's who went to print, having done so in 1723.

At that stage it seems the following septs were recognised :

McLucases or Lukes
McInturners or Turners
MacAlduies or Blacks
McIlwhoms
Towarts.

Note that he uses the spelling McIllduie as well as McAlduie. He also adds, to both names, 'or Black', which is consistent with what you've found.

Something else that may be worth mentioning in connection with septs is that 'Meikle' seems to be simply the phonetic of Mac Gille. I deduce this from the fact that MeiklPhatrick is a variant of McPatrick. So that begs the question : If Meikle is a sept of Clan Lamont, does it derive from MeikleJohn or MeiklePatrick? Does anyone know?


Sandy   




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Hello Jim

I'm afraid I can't help you with Movars. I'm quite interested to see what Innes DNA looks like though. Does anyone know of a website? McGillivray would also be interesting.

Sandy 

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Hello All,

I will not subject you to more methodologies as I am positive I may have induced some people into a deep sleep :).  So, in summary I have found a bit more information. 



Duncan Downie and Isabelle McMillan from Rudhadubh (Rudhadubh An Rubha Dubh
"The black headland" on the island of Gigha) have the following children:

 

 

25/11/1784 Neill Downie – Rudhadubh

30/04/1788 Ann Downie – Rudhadubh

30/10/1790 Duncan Downie – Rudhadubh

24/01/1792 John Downie – Rudhadubh

 

 

The same Registrar records the following:

 

 

Duncan Mcilaldownie and Isabelle McMillan from Rudhadubh (Rudhadubh An Rubha Dubh "The black headland" on the island of Gigha) has the following child:

 

 

08/04/1786 Neill Mcilaldownie – Rudhadubh

 

 

This is the only recorded Mcilaldownie on the island.  There is no record of either family (Downie or Mcilaldownie) name before 1784 and no further referenced to Mcilaldownie anywhere in Scotland.  This suggests the possibility that the family moved to Gigha from elsewhere and that Mcilaldownie was an original name, or the constant vagaries of Registrars who wrote names down as they heard them.

 

 

The name Mcaldowney appears to be present in the US, with the name appearing in the 1920 and 1930’s United States Federal Census.

Regards,

Damian



-- Edited by ddownie on Saturday 29th of August 2009 09:24:32 AM

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Please continue to add your thoughts and finds.

The Isle of Gigha is a good clue. I might have this a little twisted but here goes. The McNeils of Barra is where the ancestry of the Lamont's is supposedly from. There was a split in the McNeils before Anrothan McNeil where the Lamont descend. The McNeils of Barra & Gigha supposedly come from two brothers, who were so eatranged that they refused to use any given name they other used except for Neil.

Damian, this extra time back to our common ancestor could account for the slight genetic distance you are seeing from some Lamonts.

Just a random thought.



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Hello Knockdow,

I was hoping that it may have been, as in that mix of 67 (+/-10 GD) I have a couple of McNeals and a Neel, but alas it appears that the family were only there a short time.  There is no recorded history and no gravestones, although on interesting fact i did find that leads me to believe that they are my family is the running of an illegal still...:

WebEdition 36/7

The Rhunahaorine still was situated in a bog near to the village which in the census of 1841 had a population of almost 150 people and in 1851 it even had three schools for education. adventure and sewing. Small wonder therefore that it had many shareholders running it. It produced far more than local needs so the company purchased a boat and were sending supplies over to Sperasaig and Grogport in East Kintyre from where they were shipped to Saltcoats, Ayrshire.

In its heyday about the years 1830-35 the main operators ware John McInnes and Duncan Downie aided and abetted by Dugald McLachlan, a North Highlander who settled there in early life. He was probably a descendant of a displaced Jacobite family. An old list named other local people involved as Duncan McFatter, John Smith, Angus McAlester, Donald Montgomery, Dugald Carmichael, Hector McLachlan, Hector and John McKay, Alexander McKay, John Smillie, Duncan McMillan, Donald McPherson, Alexander and James McKinnon, Donald Smith (the oldest inhabitant in the village), Peter Stewart, John McPherson and several members of the McMillan family who ware large farmers in the district and could supply ample barley.

So, I continue to dig. 

Regards,

Damian Downie



-- Edited by ddownie on Sunday 30th of August 2009 04:58:42 AM

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